There’s a lot of fishy stuff going on, and we been down these roads too long to chop them up to coincidence.
Jayna appears next to Bjorn, but he only noticed her late. A note appears in the forest right along the path they are passing. No one is waiting for them at the monument. There’s an entrance beside the monument that wasn’t there, even though they spend days there investigating it before. And lastly the fact that they got lured here to this cave/dungeon in the first place. I’m putting money down that someone is messing with them, and orchestrating certain events…
Also, kinda called the Jayna memory thing… kinda (partially). I figured karui might have messed with her somehow. But that’s dark though… to have her sell her memories of that person to save him, only for him to die anyway shortly after, but now without her affection for him. Stone cold, man
Not really. He kept up his end of the bargain. Just because he revives someone doesn't mean they're invulnerable afterwards. If you suck enough to die once you probably going to die again. Karui did nothing wrong!
I….I mean you aren't wrong tho. This is dungeon and stone world. Bjron said skilled explorers die all the time. If dude was resurrected, than continued exploring the labryinth…..I mean can we really blame kauri? Lmao
He did keep up his bargain for sure – I meant more that it’s a devil's contract, offered to one in desperation, where what is promised to the person in need is but a perversion of their desire. Though Karui's not off the hook – legally he abided by what he said, but he still has arcane knowledge and uses it sadistically. The offer would not have come if it did not provide Karui with some pleasure of the outcomeThen again, it’s what you sign up for when you bed with Karui
In this specific case though he literally didn't do anything wrong. He didn't give a perverse version of what she wanted. He gave her exactly what she wanted for a price she was willing to pay. In order to believe or accuse him of perversing anything, you'd have to imply he was also responsible for killing him afterwards. There's no evidence of that yet. Honestly, what more do you want from Karui? You seriously want him to be invulnerable for a certain period of time after?
Nah, like I said, legally he’s off the hook – it’s just the context that makes it sinister. It’s karui who makes offers, and only when he it’s something he gets sick pleasure from. People sacrificing things important to them, losing limbs etc, but also remember he has arcane knowledge. It's implied the gods are able to see causality, so he’d know the man was teed up to kick the bucket. It’s the knowing that she’d give up her memories to save him, only for him to die and not feel anything, pretty sure that what karui revelled in.That alone is the part I find cold/sinister.
I get what you're saying but even in the game, players were able to undo the prices that were paid for the sacrifices. I'm not fully convinced Karui is evil yet. Even your accusation is based on an assumption that he could see the future and no he's offering a reward that would be taken away, but that assumption is completely groundless. You'd have to assume his intentions with no evidence as the only real way to prove it would be for Karui to admit it. Desperation doesn't excuse bad choices. She wanted the dude revived enough to sacrifice her memories of him, which even I would do if it could bring back my children for instance, which send like a fair trade for me. Even if you assume bad intentions on his end, the responsibility still lies on the person accepting the deal.I'm thinking back on past deals that we know of he's made and I can't really find overt sabotage from him where the wish maker would be considered a ”victim.” He's basically a really powerful tool that can resurrect or grant power for a price, the way that tool is used is dependant on the person wielding it. It's like trying to hammer a nail through glass then blaming the hammer when the glass breaks. Like, nah bitch you just an idiot lol. I see these same arguments being made now with AI and it always stems from a lack of accountability.
You’re right that we don’t have concrete evidence on Karui's position – all we know is based on the characterization we've been provided by Bjorn and the narration – that Karui is an evil god that delights in others displeasure. Tbh though, we haven’t seen anything to doubt that characterization of him.Also, the other gods have given oracles to their followers (including Karui), lending the basis for them having arcane knowledge of causality. Leatlas even elevated Bjorn to a higher plane to witness this causality – this could be an authority isolated to her, but we haven’t seen anything to suggest that. Plus that elevation affected Bjorn's resistance to all divine abilities, suggesting it's not just Leatlas alone.I know that not having evidence against Karui being evil isn’t a surety that he is evil, but since it’s all we have to go on, I'm comfortable basing my current understanding on this, until we learn otherwise.His deals are always devil's deals – legally sound and overtly morally ambiguous, but if you cast the light of his supposed personality/traits on his interactions, that’s when his intention appear sinister.
Also, the other gods have given oracles to their followers (including Karui), lending the basis for them having arcane knowledge of causality. Leatlas even elevated Bjorn to a higher plane to witness this causality – this could be an authority isolated to her, but we haven’t seen anything to suggest that. Plus that elevation affected Bjorn's resistance to all divine abilities, suggesting it's not just Leatlas alone.
I use that as evidence for my case though not yours. The fact that the prophecy didn’t happen according to what was shown to us demonstrates that the future can be changed, even with the “causality” argument. This means it’s not actually a prophesy, since it didn’t come true. This also only matters if you take what the god’s say at face value. Who’s to say it wasn’t only an illusion used to manipulate Bjorn. This is already more likely than not seeing as how that future didn’t happen. We know from the record stone that the future is set, and the only way to “change” it is by not changing it. Keep what is known as the future “known” and secretly give yourself some outs like they did when they went back. In that case, the prophesied future just straight up didn’t happen which means the future is just malleable (which is contradicted by the record stone,) or it wasn’t the future. If the future is capable of being changed then why wouldn’t it be changed when Karui straight up revives someone that shouldn’t have been in that future? If the future can’t change then he’s not actually changing anything and literally just having a mutually agreed transaction.Seriously, what’s the devil’s deal part to any of his deals? How is he tricking any of the people with his deals? Where exactly is the malicious intent? They ask for a thing, he trades for thing they want. What could possibly satisfy you as no malicious intent with any of his deals? You seem to be implying that his deals are inherently evil but I simply don’t see that and can’t see the argument for why they would be. The fact that you can completely mitigate his penalties actually show me that his deals are insanely abusable and overpowered. In the game it gave you a continue with a penalty after dying, but you could completely get rid of the penalty later. How is that a devil’s deal?A lot of this seems to come from a blind acceptance of trust from those you assume are “good.” Why would you trust anything any of the gods say? Frankly, the only ones I would trust are those that have earned it like Bjorn’s comrades. For all I know, every god and person in this world can be self-serving, deceitful assholes. The fact that a god is immediately labelled as “evil” because they like doing evil things makes me trust whoever says that less. That’s like a children’s cartoon villain setting up a league of evil to combat good guys because, “EEEEEEvil!!!” If Karui ended up being a 1 dimensional villain like that it would be pathetic and lazy writing.
I think thats where you misunderstood me – I haven’t said the deals are evil – they are legally sound and fair in the perspective of equivalent exchange. My point about him being cold/sinister from the start was about him taking pleasure in the misfortunes of others, the outcomes of what happens after. I never said that his deals are unfair.Picture going up to someone and offering them £50,000 to cut off their hair. Sounds fair, no? If they take the deal and get the money, there’s nothing wrong with that. But say that person was a devout Sikh, and they really needed the money to pay for their parent's surgery. Twisted, however, is having this information and asking specifically for the hair in exchange for the money, knowing and revelling in the sacrifice and potential disgrace the person will face as a consequence. (FYI, hair has special religious meaning to devout Sikhs and they don’t cut it for this reason). The taker takes the deal knowing all of this, and technically has the ability to say no, but such are devil's deals.The deal itself is fair and neutral, but the pleasure the deal-maker attains from the consequences the deal-taker will face, that’s some dark psychopathic stuff.That being said, in this case, whether Karui knew about the eventuality of the guy’s death in advance or not, from what we know of him, he was likely kekekek-ing to himself as a result of it, and Jayna's inability to respond to it. If we get some exposition that Karui has been mischaracterized and he’s actually somewhat decent, I'm down to change my position on that.
It’s implicitly evil when a Faustian bargain is labeled as a Devil’s Deal, it’s not an Angel’s Deal after all. It’s specifically named that to attribute moral weight to the bargain.
Picture going up to someone and offering them £50,000 to cut off their hair. Sounds fair, no? If they take the deal and get the money, there’s nothing wrong with that. But say that person was a devout Sikh, and they really needed the money to pay for their parent's surgery. Twisted, however, is having this information and asking specifically for the hair in exchange for the money, knowing and revelling in the sacrifice and potential disgrace the person will face as a consequence. (FYI, hair has special religious meaning to devout Sikhs and they don’t cut it for this reason). The taker takes the deal knowing all of this, and technically has the ability to say no, but such are devil's deals.
This is my point about accountability. The point of a Faustian bargain is that it demonstrates what a person actually values most. In this case, the person offering the 50k is exposing a hypocrite right? Why would someone have to be a psycho in order to revel in it. I agree that such an example can and likely attract sadists, but it doesn’t mean it’s absolute. The person at fault here is always the one taking the deal, not necessarily the person offering it. Either people are responsible for their decisions or they’re not. Desperation isn’t an excuse to justify bad decisions or responsibility.Honestly, at this point it wouldn’t surprise me if Karui ended up being some stupid loli goth chick that asians seem to really like. Even that would be better than some 1 dimensional evil god though.
Well, at least we can agree that such an example can attract sadists. From what we’ve seen and been presented with thus far, Karui fits the bill as one such sadist. In this story, he’s positioned as the literal “devil” figure – take the corruption of religious clergy, the requirement of mortal sacrifices for followers to use/maintain power, the faustian bargains presented to those in ethically compromising and often desperate positions. And just like the devil in most stories, he grants desires of any moral alignment, granted the requirement is paid. We’re also told specifically that he takes enjoyment from the misfortune of others. I understand there’s a chance this could be flipped with new characterization, but it would have to be earned, as the current characterization pins the tail on the donkey of what we’ve seen thus far. If you go back and read ch145 as one such example, you’ll see (hopefully) what I mean. When the karui priest wanted to save team Half-Wit from Regal Vagos after seeing Dwalkie's bravery, he sacrificed his everything to Karui, knowing he would forfeit his chance to save his grandson (the only reason he even went along with Vagos and committed all those acts in the first place). And Karui laughed…that spoke volumes to me of his character
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Bet we're in a karui shrine and bjorn is the sacrifice
This reeks of more Gavis manipulation
It’s for sure the doppelgängers
There’s a lot of fishy stuff going on, and we been down these roads too long to chop them up to coincidence.
Jayna appears next to Bjorn, but he only noticed her late. A note appears in the forest right along the path they are passing. No one is waiting for them at the monument. There’s an entrance beside the monument that wasn’t there, even though they spend days there investigating it before. And lastly the fact that they got lured here to this cave/dungeon in the first place. I’m putting money down that someone is messing with them, and orchestrating certain events…
Also, kinda called the Jayna memory thing… kinda (partially). I figured karui might have messed with her somehow. But that’s dark though… to have her sell her memories of that person to save him, only for him to die anyway shortly after, but now without her affection for him. Stone cold, man
I use that as evidence for my case though not yours. The fact that the prophecy didn’t happen according to what was shown to us demonstrates that the future can be changed, even with the “causality” argument. This means it’s not actually a prophesy, since it didn’t come true. This also only matters if you take what the god’s say at face value. Who’s to say it wasn’t only an illusion used to manipulate Bjorn. This is already more likely than not seeing as how that future didn’t happen. We know from the record stone that the future is set, and the only way to “change” it is by not changing it. Keep what is known as the future “known” and secretly give yourself some outs like they did when they went back. In that case, the prophesied future just straight up didn’t happen which means the future is just malleable (which is contradicted by the record stone,) or it wasn’t the future. If the future is capable of being changed then why wouldn’t it be changed when Karui straight up revives someone that shouldn’t have been in that future? If the future can’t change then he’s not actually changing anything and literally just having a mutually agreed transaction.Seriously, what’s the devil’s deal part to any of his deals? How is he tricking any of the people with his deals? Where exactly is the malicious intent? They ask for a thing, he trades for thing they want. What could possibly satisfy you as no malicious intent with any of his deals? You seem to be implying that his deals are inherently evil but I simply don’t see that and can’t see the argument for why they would be. The fact that you can completely mitigate his penalties actually show me that his deals are insanely abusable and overpowered. In the game it gave you a continue with a penalty after dying, but you could completely get rid of the penalty later. How is that a devil’s deal?A lot of this seems to come from a blind acceptance of trust from those you assume are “good.” Why would you trust anything any of the gods say? Frankly, the only ones I would trust are those that have earned it like Bjorn’s comrades. For all I know, every god and person in this world can be self-serving, deceitful assholes. The fact that a god is immediately labelled as “evil” because they like doing evil things makes me trust whoever says that less. That’s like a children’s cartoon villain setting up a league of evil to combat good guys because, “EEEEEEvil!!!” If Karui ended up being a 1 dimensional villain like that it would be pathetic and lazy writing.
It’s implicitly evil when a Faustian bargain is labeled as a Devil’s Deal, it’s not an Angel’s Deal after all. It’s specifically named that to attribute moral weight to the bargain.
This is my point about accountability. The point of a Faustian bargain is that it demonstrates what a person actually values most. In this case, the person offering the 50k is exposing a hypocrite right? Why would someone have to be a psycho in order to revel in it. I agree that such an example can and likely attract sadists, but it doesn’t mean it’s absolute. The person at fault here is always the one taking the deal, not necessarily the person offering it. Either people are responsible for their decisions or they’re not. Desperation isn’t an excuse to justify bad decisions or responsibility.Honestly, at this point it wouldn’t surprise me if Karui ended up being some stupid loli goth chick that asians seem to really like. Even that would be better than some 1 dimensional evil god though.
Who is bright?